My 2 Cents & I am ....

Nah! Your opinion is not objective cuz you are doing well now..

Ask a student who lost out a medical seat or a good engg seat! There may not be any objective opinion cuz the opinion giver falls into one of the either castes!

And the so-called forwards needn't pay for the sins their ancestors committed! Not fair at all..

Still think it shd be based on money/income of a family.

DJ Desh

DJ Desh
I said it very clearly in the post that my belief got reinforced just because I did well. Somehow or other, forward caste people/folks seem to find a way to do well and that is exactly what I meant by these people being in an advantageous postion.

Basing the whole thing on income will become a bigger farce. 40% of the country is below the poverty line and basing it on income is only going to put governmental privileges in general and education in particular, further beyond the reach of the poor and the underprivileged.
And btw, the guy who missed the medical or engineering seat, what is he upto now? Should be working in a software company or he should be in America right? I would be very surprised if he is a mason or a clerk or a carpenter

dude, what do you mean that a backward caste kid would settle for a menial job if he/she doesn't get enuf scores. wrong man, actually they are the ones that have more money these days.

reservation was needed, 50 yrs back. Ambedkar introduced it and told that it has to go in a few yrs. I support that. But what happened, people like Karunanidhi and MGR just bossted the percentage for political gains.

your point is that the person who missed out on that medical seat would be doing well now, no matter what. Flawed logic...this is like saying "ok your love is a failure, but guess what, you'd still marry and have kids".

I personally hate the reservation crap.

Saranyan
In my humble opinion, I think you are classifying backward castes and communities with just a microscopic minority of people that we come across in everyday life.

Your thing about Ambedkar wanting to get rid of the system after a few years years is a point well taken but these reservations in my opinion are yet to achieve equality that Ambedkar hoped could have been achieved in the first few years.
I am not surprised that you hate reservation and called it crap. But you have to see many of these backward caste folks can no way compete with you or me because we are in a much more advantageous position. The general awareness prevailing in our family circles about education, the ability of your friends/family to counsel you on career choices are all in my opion - ADVANTAGES.

So most times, some of these folks cannot compete with you in terms of marks scored and it is only fair that there is a leeway for them and I strongly believe so. Even I was mighty pissed, when I found folks with lesser scores than me in much better instituitions but when I look back and see where they are and where some of my co-cribbers and I are, the thing about having more advantages begin to unravel.

Also, the thing about love failure. A pragmatic person would carry on with life and not waste it. A foolish man would waste his life thinking about spilt milk

Sudharshan, Your post has made me think...I'll write a detailed comment this weekend.

Thanks for the interesting post

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I would like to add that I am also a victim. The wounds are still unhealed.

Am I proud/happy that I am in the US now.? Not really.

How can I forget those bad memories?

I couldn't achieve what I wanted to, in education, thanks to my 'Forward Caste Label'. ( No private colleges those days - 1978).

Look at those people who couldn't achieve, thanks to the Forward Caste Label and look at the people who were pushed up the ladder
'Just because of the label'. Is it fair?

Those wounds are not going to heal.

You said, that the forward caste parents had the means and methods to educate kids. Not always true.

I am an example. I know what hardship my parents had to undergo.

It's high time a line is drawn and the slate is cleaned.

A system which was started to help out ...has gone out of control .

How to fix it.? I don't know...Its left to our people and politicians to decide.

forward caste... stuk on to my forehead and i am identified as one considering the exams which i have to write very soon...

cut off marks .... 298/300 for fwd castes...y??? backward dont even have to pick up their books to get inside a college.. they can jus step in use their identity as a backward class and get the work done..

25 lakhs aint a small amt. and incase im not in the cut off mark limit..i got to pay that... while most backward class ppl can jus walk in and enjoy..

this is not right and can never be...

I think there are parallels in every country - Blacks/Native Americans in the US, aborigines in canada/australia/nz, gypsies in europe ...

I think you have to rise above individual economics and think of the situation from a macro standpoint - Ultimately, if the backward castes do not come up, th country can never progress and neither can the forward castes - Of course, escaping to the US is a different issue ...

I agree with reservation, but maybe the % has to be reduced and more emphasis has to be made on the financial situation of the student rather than concentrating only on caste

Narayanan & Anon
Once again, my commiserations are with you. I understand the hardships every parents need to undergo BUT do ask yourself whether a cobbler's son, a ragpicker's daughter can ever compete with you on even terms. The equation is loaded way too much in your favor. On a personal note, even my family was going through financial hardships but I could atleast take a loan to study and this is definitely not a luxury many of the underprivileged can afford. Unfortunately, sometimes we don't even get it because our needs are much different from the people at the grassroots.

Vel
I agree it needs to be scaled back but is it time, maybe not? I am not equipped with numbers to know when it can be scaled back but I still believe that equality is still a distant dream. Should it be based on income, I think I answered it previously

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Sudarshan, I appreciate your thoughts. But your comparisons are extreme.

If we were to suggest income based reservations we need to think if . it will it really work in a country where there is no accountability for taxes?

How would you grade someone? to qualify for income based
reservation?

That's why I feel that we need a big effort to fine tune this system which was put in place for a cause which has now gone out of control.

Narayanan
I was not suggesting income based reservations at all... I said this - "Basing the whole thing on income will become a bigger farce. 40% of the country is below the poverty line and basing it on income is only going to put governmental privileges in general and education in particular, further beyond the reach of the poor and the underprivileged."

why does your blog go off the radar every now and then?

KD.

KD Dude
Gimme your thots on the subject. I respect it

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"And the so-called forwards needn't pay for the sins their ancestors committed! Not fair at all.." - DJ Desh, if this is what you think, wouldnt you also agree that if there was no reservation, forward castes would simply enjoy the benefits of the sins their ancestors committed ? - Also, I dont know whether I would call it a "sin", just using your terminology

The forward castes, in whatever 'GOD-FORMS' (Avatars) they come, make up for a small portion of the Indian population. So, I think 31% is good.

The OTHERS are having it easy, for the time being, atleast, because very few among THEM take to education. So, they walk in unruffled - without having to sweat it out. Which is sad.

However, things will be very different when a lot of THEM take to education. There will be competition even for the alloted 69%. Doing so, standards will go up and everybody (the COUNTRY) stands to gain.

KD

So, how to get out of this catch-22 situation?

Do you think continuing this way is the solution?

Hear, Hear!!!Well written post.

I personally think that the reservation system has had its benefits. As with any system, there will be pros and cons. The question is how to improve it, so that the people who havent benefited from this get a chance at equality.

I would think that if a family gets the reservation benefit in one generation, they shouldn't be allowed to make another claim for atleast another generation and their next generation should compete for 31% open quota. This way, the original intention of reservation is maintained, and not creamed off by those who have benefited already.

Narayanan
Its decision time in 2011. I think we should review the census data and estimate the classes that have considerable literacy rate and withdraw benefits for those classes. I think that is how it needs to be done

do u even know if the ragpicker's son would like to study in a college and go on to get a degree or etc. bsides.... if u thrust this onto him he'll probably walk off jabbing his index finger to his forehead indicating ur MAD....

they dont want to improve.... the government feels tat the nation should move on... and tries to educate the backward ppl. but ask ur self ...... its these ppl. forming a majority of the nation., who mindlessly caste their votes supporting a party. in majority.....

the government...... does these allocation shits for name sake ... in reality they really dont want to "alleviate the poor" somtin i learnt in my 10th.

Anon

1. I cannot really answer cynics like you.
2. with such views, you should probably stay indooors.

gak

God forbid, should you face a medical crisis, would you rather go under the knife of a surgeon that wields the knife by merit or by reservation? Same applies to getting your dream home built by an engineer that became one by merit or by reservation?

You made a gross mistake in generalising when you said "If you cannot make it within the top 31% of the country, most of the forward caste parents had the means and methods to educate their kids; a luxury most backward caste parents will not be able to afford." Which begs the question, what happens of a guy or girl deemed socially forward but economically weak?

By sticking to a reservation policy that holds the back door open for academically undeserving candidates, you are only worsening their plight. When it comes to employment, (the private setor) no business enterprise would welcome into their pay rolls people that don't have exacting academic standards. This policy is slowly building up a huge group of people that will feel left out with respect to getting good/paying/challenging jobs.

As some people have already pointed out, being made to pay for the supposed sins of my ancestors is OK but not for the sins of my community as a whole. As in Germany, I am ok with going after specific Nazi officers/criminals but not the Germans as a race. The supposed backward castes of today perpetuate crimes against the scheduled castes and still enjoy the benefits of the suppressed!

Separating the population into haves and have nots is fine as long as the criteria is money and not brains!

Anon
I am surprised that almost everyone in this blog expressed concern about the tens, hundreds and thousands of economically weak but academically strong forward class students but many choose to ignore the thousands and thousands of backward class masses who have benefitted by the scheme.

I am not sure whether I should put it down to upper caste people's tendency to look out for their immediate circle or the lack of knowledge about blogs etc for the some of the masses I am trying to support.

Believing in the good nature of people, I am putting it down to the latter.

The whole comment page has some amazing points! Esp. the anonymous dude above me..

Anyway, I didn't quite understand why income based reservation would put things beyond the reach of poor/underpriveleged further?! care to explain?

Basically this has to be done in two passes
1. The first pass - improve the infrastructure the ultimate goal wherein is to find the economy status of each family. When you look at country as a whole this task seems impossible, but lets start with each state, each district, each panchayat or wotever.. Lets look at it recursively!! Why wait till 2011?! Start it right now!!

2. The second pass is going about implementing the economy based reservation.. Have an empirical cutoff based on data collected
Family income < 5000 Rs - 25 % reservation
Family income 5000-10000 Rs - 25 %
Rest - compete for 50 %..
This gives an opportunity for the poor kids to get education at good places and a chance to improve their livelihood. The above numbers are just an example..

* If this seems drastic, we can have a hybrid reservation - both caste based and economy based where the weight for caste is less and economy more
- MBC and SC with less money are the highest here..give them a good opportunity to improve their family.
- Forwards who mint money have to fight it out.. No other go baby!

-DJ Desh

Sudarshan

Why do you assume that economically weak forwards are academically brilliant?!

You have any numbers?!

Anon
I just paraphrased what someone else said in the comments section -

"what happens of a guy or girl deemed socially forward but economically weak".

I assumed that this person was talking about economically weak and academically strong forward class students. Please point me to any assumption that I have made to your claim and I am more than willing to correct it

DJ Desh
I admire your blueprint. As I have stated in my post and also in the comments section, in my opinion, some of these kids are confronted with a different problem - the lack of guidance and support from their parents. I am sure in most households, parents play a very important role in moulding the kids. If you visit most homes around 6 or 7 pm, you have either one of the parent helping the kid with its studies. In many of the backward class homes, this is not possible as most of these kids have parents who are not educated and these kids don't have the means to go to tuition etc. So, at the first instance of non performance, these kids are taken out of school. The battles that some of these kids have to fight are very different and to expect them to perform even to the extent of a economically weak forward caste student is just asking for too much. I am not sure whether many of them will be able to compete for that 25% or 50% quota with other forward class students.

I said we need to wait till 2011 because such a huge data collection exercise will need considerable financial resources and it is just wise to club it together with the census rather than spending almos t the same amount of money twice

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Let's start with a hybrid system now where a family is assigned a rank of

w1 * caste + w2 * income

Initially let's keep w1 more and announce that every year w1 would become less and w2 would increase! ( more weightage is given to income of a family than caste as years progress). This is very smooth transition yet very feasible solution!

Scenario : ( in Increasing order of ranks)
* A backward class poor student : the rank is very less - so he gets more opportunities
* A backward class rich student and a forward class poor student have more or less equal ranks ( in future since the rank is due to economy, the forward class poor student gets less rank)
* A forward class rich kid has to fight it out.

At the same time, there has to be a strict announcement from the government that population will figure in the reservation sometime in the future! I am a firm believer that most of the problems maligning India can be traced down to its huge population.
So, an economically weak chap can't afford to keep on fathering because his reservation benefits would decrease ( This makes sense - if he can't even support himself, how can he just father kids?!)
Thus families having one or two kids will have more reservation benefits! which will benefit India in the long run.

So, *eventually* it'd be great if its a 3 pronged hybrid reservation system based on caste, economy and number of children and weightage due to caste will be very less ( of course there'll be benefits to Scheduled Tribes et. al.)

-DJ Desh

Sudharshan,
See how sensitive this topic is...By the comments.!!

It hurts ...It hurts..!!

Nevertheless, its extremely important to bring it up ...

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Sounds like there are 2 parameters to identify the persecuted and poor - caste or income.

Statistically, Income does serve as a better blanket (or a more general) filter. However, we must accomodate the following scenario. Consider a poor kid born to well educated parents and a less poor kid born to illiterate parents. Note, I said less poor not rich. The kid born to educated parents is more likely to have a better score than the kid born to illiterate parents. Now, to add to the complexity let us say the kid with educated parents is from high-caste and kid with illiterate parents is from lower-class. What do you do?

There are many shades between black and white and usually thats where the mean (majority) is.

A possible solution will be to use a 3 metric eligibility factor - income, parents educational background and religion.

But - no matter what solution we choose, we cannot paint without a canvas! That is, it all depends on India's infrastructure.

So hopefully we lucky ones who have made it (high or low, rich or poor) get to improve and integrate India's infrastructure.

- PM.

Narayanan
If you try to keep your emotions and personal experience out of the equation , it will make sense.
Once again, the people responding here on this topic and feeling miserable about it are 15/1 billion. So the views of these 15 are in no way suggestive and representative of the country's in which more than half of the people are from backward classes.

Dude,
On a lighter note- how did the U2 concert go. Heard that bill gates were there too and U2 camped at gates p(a)lace after the concert.

do write about it man.

jus bloghopping til I came here. I suppose this discussion is over. so lemme jus say - i more than agree with the post. ive a similar post up HERE.

Sudharshan

Very interesting blog. Had posted my comments on reservation in chennaicentral as well.

The reasosn people are concerned abut brilliant but economically poor forward class students are because of the implied injustice.

'They somehow make it ok in the long run'is your argument.
You and guys like you made it big not because US insitutrions like brahmins right? It still requires bloody work.

FYI i am not a tam-brahm. i belong to the so called backward class.

I totally agree to your view on the environmental aspects and the information that is available to a fwd class guy.
For eg. i did not know about GRE, CAT, NID ahmedabad for a long time.
But this is not an excuse for having a seat reserved in my name in these institutes.

what this means is that guys like me need mentoring (if that is not available at home) it shuld be available elsewhere(maybe schools maybe some other body should arrange for the same)
we are not naive enough to expect the govt to do. maybe it can start at a micro level by individuals and maybe corporates can join.

if i don't know about these institutes, what value do i attach to the seats reserved in these institutes?

Also, by denying a seat to a fwd class student who has done better in some exam (exam system is such a crap but let me reserve that for some other post),are we not encouraging medicority?
Are we not saying 'we dont respect your blood, sweat and hard work
You can go elsewhere'?

Are we not saying 'we don't respect your work, we see who you are?

Looking back this is what happens at the govt level in all depts.
The one person who suffers is the sincere straight fwd official irrespective of whether he is a fwd community,BC or SC/ST.

I guess denying a seat to someone
bcos he belongs to a particular community irrespective of how good he is like something impossible to digest at any point of time.

It is just bad principle we are teaching to the next gen. as a whole. The world does not work this way.

Prabhu karthik
it is awesome that you have aired your thots but have you thot about all those SC/St's , Dalits who are/were being denied even water by upper class people.

I once again feel the upper class is the root cause of all the mediocrity that exists in the country. If equality needs to be achieved, then somoene has to bite the bullet and it has to be the upper class as it has forever enjoyed the advantages of the system.

Prabhu karthik
One more thing I liked about what you said is the Govt. needs to strengthen the educational system. I think that is absolutely right. Govt. needs to make learning/science [ as in India even now the hot thing is Engineering/Medicine] fun for these kids. They need to have tutition centers to make sure these supposedly backward class kids give their upper class counterparts a run for their money